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	<title>Comments on: Douglas Adams on religion and puddles</title>
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	<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/</link>
	<description>Every time you think you're talking you're just moving your mouth.</description>
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		<title>By: AwaisKemal</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-60873</link>
		<dc:creator>AwaisKemal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 13:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-60873</guid>
		<description>Yes we are Random, Yes there is probably no &quot;God&quot;, BUT that doesn&#039;t mean that we have no meaning but we HAVE TO CREATE IT an I thank Douglas Adams for teaching that to me. I will miss you Douglas Adams...
                                              

                                                    42</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes we are Random, Yes there is probably no &#8220;God&#8221;, BUT that doesn&#8217;t mean that we have no meaning but we HAVE TO CREATE IT an I thank Douglas Adams for teaching that to me. I will miss you Douglas Adams&#8230;</p>
<p>                                                    42</p>
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		<title>By: Stefan</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-49504</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 21:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-49504</guid>
		<description>It seems silly to argue that an atheist can not believe in resting in peace. A total lack of existence should surely qualify as resting in peace. It&#039;s hardly an uproar of strife. If anything it seems to give credence to the beliefs of atheists. After all, resting in peace is far closer to atheism than descriptions of an afterlife.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems silly to argue that an atheist can not believe in resting in peace. A total lack of existence should surely qualify as resting in peace. It&#8217;s hardly an uproar of strife. If anything it seems to give credence to the beliefs of atheists. After all, resting in peace is far closer to atheism than descriptions of an afterlife.</p>
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		<title>By: I Was A Teenage&#8230; Blog! &#187; &#8230; Winter Breaker!</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-48640</link>
		<dc:creator>I Was A Teenage&#8230; Blog! &#187; &#8230; Winter Breaker!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:03:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-48640</guid>
		<description>[...] of &#8220;The Hitchhiker&#8217;s Guide To The Galaxy,&#8221; was an atheist before he kicked the puddle. By the time New Year&#8217;s Eve came along, I was hoping that the world would end so the next [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of &#8220;The Hitchhiker&#8217;s Guide To The Galaxy,&#8221; was an atheist before he kicked the puddle. By the time New Year&#8217;s Eve came along, I was hoping that the world would end so the next [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-40326</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 09:50:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-40326</guid>
		<description>Nice quote. It is interesting how the arguments in the posts drift inexorably into the usual blinkered defence of religion by twisting the words and meaning of the original quote and then refuting that reinterpretation. An approach used so (in)effectively in the intelligent design argument.
 
So to start let&#039;s clarify what the quote means (I&#039;m sure most of us atheists got it first time, but it appears many of the religious believers misunderstood it, whether  deliberately or not I leave to your judgement). 
So the quote is pointing out by use of an analogy (or possibly more correctly an allegory) that the existence of a
seemingly ideal situation in the real world (the perfect fit of the puddle to its hole), when viewed from the (necessarily) limited perspective of the puddle,  is not necessarily evidence of planned intent (and by inference Divine intent). Douglas then extends this to warn against complacency - just because things seem to be designed for the puddle now, the world can change. 
To clear up some superficial attacks on this - the use of an imaginary sentient puddle does not debase the argument. Therein lies the power of our brains - we have imagination, and the whole power of rhetorical language to use and enjoy. If you want to argue against the ideas and concepts so cleverly and concisely wrapped up in the quote, then do so, but don&#039;t point at the talking puddle and giggle &#039;oh look he used a talking puddle to illustrate his ideas, Douglas  believed in talking puddles&#039;.
To answer one of the anonymous comments - the quote is not comparing a human life to a puddle. It is using the puddle/hole fit to encapsulate the vast range of anthropocentric arguments used by religious believers to explain their faith (surely the point of faith is that it defies explanation). It covers everything from intelligent design, evolution, to deeper cosmological principles (ie how come the universe seems to be &#039;designed&#039; support life - for discussion on this I point you to long running discussions on the weak and strong anthropic principles)   

And now some of the other comments -
Regarding John&#039;s interpretation of Douglas&#039;s &#039;beliefs&#039; (see  below for discussion on this word) &quot;he never really “was” ... anything other than a chemical reaction&quot;, yes he was, palpably, a creative individual with the ability to reason, argue, imagine hugely entertaining comic stories, and contemplate at a very deep level our existence and the &#039;meaning of our lives&#039;. The fact that he did all this without the need for a crutch of belief in the supernatural surely says more about the power of our minds than any religious text. The rather pathetic attempt at reductio ad absurdum of the comment &quot;If Douglas was right, he never truly made any decisions because they were automatically made for him by the chemistry in his brain.&quot; almost doesn&#039;t need refuting, firstly no explanation of how the brain works implies our thoughts are predetermined, controlled by some uberchemical reaction. The brain is a complex organ, the mind a complex self aware structure. Obviously we are all (religious or not) influenced by our physical electrochemical makeup (without this there would be no effect of chemicals on our minds, and obviously neuroscience tells of of the links between physical structures and thoughts - read oliver sacks for some fascinating insights into the mind/brain links.
Oh and another thing - &#039;for there is physically no difference between him as a walking living body or as a dead body&#039; well yes there is, in a dead body the various biological processes have shut down, there are no electrochemical signals passing through the brain, no heart pumping, no activity in the mind, no self awareness. Dead.




It is interesting to consider whether the evaporating puddle was chosen deliberately to hint at global warming as a potentially species threatening change that we need to be aware of.  



Oh and a comment  on the final argument (see replies by cm and anon)thrown in by religious believers when logic starts to bite. Note the word believer - faith is the basis of religious belief not rational interpretation. I do not believe in supernatural interference in the world or my life. That lack of belief *does not* imply comparable belief (as faith) in another world view. I have been charged by religious friends of having as strong belief in the lack of god as they do in the existence of god. Not true. I have conviction in a rational interpretation of the world, but my view is *not* faith based.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice quote. It is interesting how the arguments in the posts drift inexorably into the usual blinkered defence of religion by twisting the words and meaning of the original quote and then refuting that reinterpretation. An approach used so (in)effectively in the intelligent design argument.</p>
<p>So to start let&#8217;s clarify what the quote means (I&#8217;m sure most of us atheists got it first time, but it appears many of the religious believers misunderstood it, whether  deliberately or not I leave to your judgement).<br />
So the quote is pointing out by use of an analogy (or possibly more correctly an allegory) that the existence of a<br />
seemingly ideal situation in the real world (the perfect fit of the puddle to its hole), when viewed from the (necessarily) limited perspective of the puddle,  is not necessarily evidence of planned intent (and by inference Divine intent). Douglas then extends this to warn against complacency &#8211; just because things seem to be designed for the puddle now, the world can change.<br />
To clear up some superficial attacks on this &#8211; the use of an imaginary sentient puddle does not debase the argument. Therein lies the power of our brains &#8211; we have imagination, and the whole power of rhetorical language to use and enjoy. If you want to argue against the ideas and concepts so cleverly and concisely wrapped up in the quote, then do so, but don&#8217;t point at the talking puddle and giggle &#8216;oh look he used a talking puddle to illustrate his ideas, Douglas  believed in talking puddles&#8217;.<br />
To answer one of the anonymous comments &#8211; the quote is not comparing a human life to a puddle. It is using the puddle/hole fit to encapsulate the vast range of anthropocentric arguments used by religious believers to explain their faith (surely the point of faith is that it defies explanation). It covers everything from intelligent design, evolution, to deeper cosmological principles (ie how come the universe seems to be &#8216;designed&#8217; support life &#8211; for discussion on this I point you to long running discussions on the weak and strong anthropic principles)   </p>
<p>And now some of the other comments -<br />
Regarding John&#8217;s interpretation of Douglas&#8217;s &#8216;beliefs&#8217; (see  below for discussion on this word) &#8220;he never really “was” &#8230; anything other than a chemical reaction&#8221;, yes he was, palpably, a creative individual with the ability to reason, argue, imagine hugely entertaining comic stories, and contemplate at a very deep level our existence and the &#8216;meaning of our lives&#8217;. The fact that he did all this without the need for a crutch of belief in the supernatural surely says more about the power of our minds than any religious text. The rather pathetic attempt at reductio ad absurdum of the comment &#8220;If Douglas was right, he never truly made any decisions because they were automatically made for him by the chemistry in his brain.&#8221; almost doesn&#8217;t need refuting, firstly no explanation of how the brain works implies our thoughts are predetermined, controlled by some uberchemical reaction. The brain is a complex organ, the mind a complex self aware structure. Obviously we are all (religious or not) influenced by our physical electrochemical makeup (without this there would be no effect of chemicals on our minds, and obviously neuroscience tells of of the links between physical structures and thoughts &#8211; read oliver sacks for some fascinating insights into the mind/brain links.<br />
Oh and another thing &#8211; &#8216;for there is physically no difference between him as a walking living body or as a dead body&#8217; well yes there is, in a dead body the various biological processes have shut down, there are no electrochemical signals passing through the brain, no heart pumping, no activity in the mind, no self awareness. Dead.</p>
<p>It is interesting to consider whether the evaporating puddle was chosen deliberately to hint at global warming as a potentially species threatening change that we need to be aware of.  </p>
<p>Oh and a comment  on the final argument (see replies by cm and anon)thrown in by religious believers when logic starts to bite. Note the word believer &#8211; faith is the basis of religious belief not rational interpretation. I do not believe in supernatural interference in the world or my life. That lack of belief *does not* imply comparable belief (as faith) in another world view. I have been charged by religious friends of having as strong belief in the lack of god as they do in the existence of god. Not true. I have conviction in a rational interpretation of the world, but my view is *not* faith based.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-39905</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 02:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-39905</guid>
		<description>A lot of mention about truth - as in capital &#039;T&#039; - for atheists.  I like my truth as much as the next guy but I smell a double standard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of mention about truth &#8211; as in capital &#8216;T&#8217; &#8211; for atheists.  I like my truth as much as the next guy but I smell a double standard.</p>
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		<title>By: cm</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-39881</link>
		<dc:creator>cm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-39881</guid>
		<description>religion and atheism, they&#039;re almost the same in one regard.

the religious comfort themselves with false hope, and the atheistic comfort themselves because they know the truth. 

what difference is there? everyone is looking for the same thing, a way to deal with it. what difference does it make to someone else how others deal with it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>religion and atheism, they&#8217;re almost the same in one regard.</p>
<p>the religious comfort themselves with false hope, and the atheistic comfort themselves because they know the truth. </p>
<p>what difference is there? everyone is looking for the same thing, a way to deal with it. what difference does it make to someone else how others deal with it?</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-39877</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:59:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-39877</guid>
		<description>I think you missed the point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you missed the point.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-39839</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 02:30:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-39839</guid>
		<description>I have long used a similar scenario to argue the point that how well we fit in here implies intelligent design. Great post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have long used a similar scenario to argue the point that how well we fit in here implies intelligent design. Great post.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-39581</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-39581</guid>
		<description>This idea is taken from the book &quot;Ishmael&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This idea is taken from the book &#8220;Ishmael&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Dmo</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-39505</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Dmo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-39505</guid>
		<description>We do know quite a bit about the universe/multiverse, and one thing we do know without a doubt is it is materialistic in nature.
Dendroica

..yet 9 10ths of it is missing!

Permit me to doubt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We do know quite a bit about the universe/multiverse, and one thing we do know without a doubt is it is materialistic in nature.<br />
Dendroica</p>
<p>..yet 9 10ths of it is missing!</p>
<p>Permit me to doubt.</p>
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		<title>By: CPC</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-39453</link>
		<dc:creator>CPC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 08:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-39453</guid>
		<description>Even if the puddle realized it was evaporating, it could do nothing to stop it. WE still have a chance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if the puddle realized it was evaporating, it could do nothing to stop it. WE still have a chance.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosa</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-39423</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:29:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-39423</guid>
		<description>This seems to be allegorist of humanity and our species&#039; attitude to life, the world and our &#039;purpose&#039; in it.


We look around us and see how well we fit into the world, and being an arrogant species conclude that it must have been created for us, by some benevolent force. [rather then we evolved to meet the circumstances we live in]. Awhile later some &#039;clever leaders&#039; realise that if the poor all believe that their blind acceptance of their &#039;fate&#039; in return for eternal reward in the &#039;afterlife&#039; then that pretty much puts paid to any challenge to the status quo.
------------------------------------------

p.s. re wishing rip to Douglas, while not believing in an afterlife, we all live within a society in which convention allows you to express your respect for the deceased by wishing them rip, irrespective of personal beliefs, or the origins of the phrase. 

With that in mind Douglas Adams RIP

--------------------------------------------------

p.p.s. It is not particular beliefs which are the problem, but the building up of hierarchical structures on these beliefs, leading to the dogmatic refusal to accept that anyone else might be justified in believing what they believe, irrespective of whether it is a &#039;true&#039; belief or not.

It is the dogmatic fundamentalist belief that you are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong, which is the problem and atheists as well as theists are guilty of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This seems to be allegorist of humanity and our species&#8217; attitude to life, the world and our &#8216;purpose&#8217; in it.</p>
<p>We look around us and see how well we fit into the world, and being an arrogant species conclude that it must have been created for us, by some benevolent force. [rather then we evolved to meet the circumstances we live in]. Awhile later some &#8216;clever leaders&#8217; realise that if the poor all believe that their blind acceptance of their &#8216;fate&#8217; in return for eternal reward in the &#8216;afterlife&#8217; then that pretty much puts paid to any challenge to the status quo.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;</p>
<p>p.s. re wishing rip to Douglas, while not believing in an afterlife, we all live within a society in which convention allows you to express your respect for the deceased by wishing them rip, irrespective of personal beliefs, or the origins of the phrase. </p>
<p>With that in mind Douglas Adams RIP</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>p.p.s. It is not particular beliefs which are the problem, but the building up of hierarchical structures on these beliefs, leading to the dogmatic refusal to accept that anyone else might be justified in believing what they believe, irrespective of whether it is a &#8216;true&#8217; belief or not.</p>
<p>It is the dogmatic fundamentalist belief that you are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong, which is the problem and atheists as well as theists are guilty of.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-39391</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:06:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-39391</guid>
		<description>Well this is the way I see it: Perhaps it&#039;s just random chance that we are here, and there&#039;s no real point to our existence. So what? Even if that is the case, we, as human beings, are still capable of happiness, love, and enjoyment. There is no reason to say or think, &quot;I&#039;m random and meaningless, and therefore there is no reason for me to be happy.&quot; And perhaps there is no creator, no god, or anything like that. But if we&#039;re here by random chance, then perhaps so is some supernatural figure as well. 

That being said, this is a brilliantly-worded idea, and is certainly worth thought. It&#039;s not offensive to any belief, but simply a statement of one&#039;s own belief, and for that, it has a great amount of validity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well this is the way I see it: Perhaps it&#8217;s just random chance that we are here, and there&#8217;s no real point to our existence. So what? Even if that is the case, we, as human beings, are still capable of happiness, love, and enjoyment. There is no reason to say or think, &#8220;I&#8217;m random and meaningless, and therefore there is no reason for me to be happy.&#8221; And perhaps there is no creator, no god, or anything like that. But if we&#8217;re here by random chance, then perhaps so is some supernatural figure as well. </p>
<p>That being said, this is a brilliantly-worded idea, and is certainly worth thought. It&#8217;s not offensive to any belief, but simply a statement of one&#8217;s own belief, and for that, it has a great amount of validity.</p>
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		<title>By: cuna</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-39379</link>
		<dc:creator>cuna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:19:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-39379</guid>
		<description>the continuity of space and time as a refractive angular modifyed aspect of related interactive bipolar existence subject to ones interpratations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the continuity of space and time as a refractive angular modifyed aspect of related interactive bipolar existence subject to ones interpratations.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://talkingincircles.net/2008/07/19/douglas-adams-on-religion-and-puddles/comment-page-1/#comment-39367</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkingincircles.net/?p=272#comment-39367</guid>
		<description>I know my demise is coming, so I live like there&#039;s no tomorrow, just enjoy the time you have, because you won&#039;t get another chance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know my demise is coming, so I live like there&#8217;s no tomorrow, just enjoy the time you have, because you won&#8217;t get another chance.</p>
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