I’ve had too many discussions lately about politics and philosophy that have ended prematurely because of people’s unwillingness to discuss religion, or think about it in the critically in the same way they would other subjects. When someone says that it’s their faith that life is sacred and abortion should be illegal, you can’t respond. There is nothing you could say that wouldn’t seem insensitive.
This is starting to bug me. It’s like people can bring up their faith as a way to get out of justifying their opinions. I couldn’t see a better fix for this than simply starting to challenge people who used their faith as an excuse for an opinion that had no reason or evidence to back it up. I would urge others to do so as well.
yup, i’m sick of that shit too. they use religion as a shield so they don’t have to back up their positions.
When a religious person mentions something like abortion, I simply tell them there’s selfish political motivation behind their movement and whoever drives all of it is one evil A-hole. That usually makes them rethink everything…unless they’re ignorant and careless.
Faith disregards reason.
Those that hide behind their faith do not see the need for explanation. I find it disrespectful if someone is not willing to explain their reasoning.
Consider the following two conversations:
“I hate peanuts”
“Why”
“Because I do”
“I hate peanuts”
“Why”
“Becasue I have a medical condition that makes them potentially lethal”
Not quite the perfect analogy but they do demonstrate the point. The respectful response is to explain your statement, not simply to expect people to accept your statement because you said it.
I have also come across people that will not discuss Religion in case a reasoned discussion shatters their faith. They rely so much on their faith that if it were undermined they would cease to have a purpose in life.
Some of us have faith that IS explained by our reasoning. Not all who are spiritual are immature fundamentalist Christians.
Obviously Christianity is flawed.
Obviously The Christian Bible is a story. A great story but nothing more.
Obviously religion is created by man and has nothing to do with the divine.
But these things do not mean that God does not exist. Some who seek God do so with logic, reasoning, AND faith.
God is Love. God is All. God Is.
I Am
i also find that even none-religious people tend to not want to have a debate on religion because they think it is wrong to talk and argue something that the religious person is going to get offended over.
and….
Quote
“Some who seek God do so with logic, reasoning, AND faith.”
You may try and find god via logic and reasoning but never faith. Faith is the opposite to logic, faith is the belief without logical evidence.
We are all looking for a reason, but the world hasnt found it yet. i’m a student chemist, i dont think ill find god in my test tube, but i dont need god.I’m happy just finding something that makes THIS WORLD (the only one we have) a better place for my kids.
A touchy subject at best. I find that when the subject of abortion comes up with someone of faith, I think of George Carlin’s bit on the Sanctity of Life. Here is part of it…
Well let me ask you this, if everything that ever lived is dead, and everything alive is going to die, where does the sacred part come in? I’m having trouble with that. Because even with the stuff we preach about the sanctity of life, we don’t practice it. Look at what we kill. Mosquitos and flies, because they’re pests! Lions and tigers, because it’s fun! Chickens and pigs, because we’re hungry. Pheasants and quail, because it’s fun, and we’re hungry. And people! We kill people, because they’re pests… and it’s fun!
And you might have noticed something else, the sanctity of life doesn’t seem to apply to cancer cells, does it? You never see a bumpersticker that says ‘save the tumors’ or ‘I brake for advanced melanoma.’ No, viruses, mold, mildew, maggots, fungus, weeds, e. coli bacteria, the crabs, nothing sacred about those things. So at best, the sanctity of life is kind of a selective thing. We get to choose which forms of life we feel are sacred, and we get to kill the rest. Pretty neat deal, huh? You know how we got it? We made the whole fucking thing up! Made it up, the same way we made up the death penalty. We made them both up, the sanctity of life and the death penalty. Aren’t we versatile?!”
It is hard for someone of faith to have a retort for that. If they even sit there long enough to hear it.
Logic is a system for reasoning. There you make some assumptions and from that you derive more things (formula’s) that are true. There are logics with which you can reason about belief or knowledge. These are modal logics if you are interested.
However if you introduce the one in the other you can deduce falsum with stunning regularity. And from falsum you can deduce everything. Nothing and all is true at the same time.
So when you mix belief with knowledge you can have it any way you please. Thats why discussions like this allways end with a lot of frustration.
And now for something a bit different.
The difference between Belief and Science is that science backs it’s assumptions up with evidence. Believers say, it’s based on faith, or the bible.
An other difference is, what do you do with your results. Scientists go and find evidence to back up their reasoning. (i.e. is there evidence of my end results.) Where as believers simply say: It is so.
In science you get a chance to disprove theories. In Religions circles you are usualy ridiculed and excommunicated if not tortured and killed.
Scientists try to come up with a model that describes the world. Belivers try to distort the world to match the model they have.
Finaly I have a bone to pick with I AM. (whose myspace account has miraculusly been deleted.)
God is the father of all. A father who keeps a torture chamber for his kids. Is that considerd a loving father? I don’t think so. Especialy if you take in to consideration that everybody is carrying the inherited sins of Adam and Eve. Because, if you do, you will never get in to heaven unless God makes some exception to the rules. But God is infallable thus, so are his rules. So all god really is, is damnation.
T.
I try to use their “conclusion”, in this case that abortion is bad because life is sacred, against them. “So if life is sacred, then obviously you are a pacifist and against capitol punishment right?” Some people do hold consistant opinions, but most do not. If they show some crack in their logic then I’ll seize on that and ask more questions. Its the Socratic method, and it works wonders (or miracles, if you believe!).
Why should you feel as if you’re being insensitive?
I don’t hold with the view that you should be sensitive to peoples faith.
I’m an atheist and have yet to have the same courtesy extended to my lack of faith from theists.
It’s time to level the playing field
amen, probabilityzero